Banning the Burkha/ Niqab

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Maeby

| 22,311 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 9:44 pm

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Well, France seems to be going ahead with this. Britain isn't.

What are your opinions on it?

Is it a garment that is insulting and degrading to women, that restricts them and shoves their (perceived) inequality out there for everyone to see?

Or is this move an infringement on some women's civil liberties (perhaps that's not the right phrase, Mark will have to help here)- it stops their freedom of expression, their religion? Some women may choose to wear it themselves- some may even feel it empowers them. Why should we have the right to dictate what people wear?

So, go on. What do you think?

Edited by Maeby Jul 2010
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Delirium Tremens

| 1,875 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 9:51 pm

Delirium Tremens -

 
Quote: Resident Death, Jul 2010
Well, France seems to be going ahead with this. Britain isn't.

What are your opinions on it?

Is it a garment that is insulting and degrading to women, that restricts them and shoves their (perceived) inequality out there for everyone to see?

Or is this move an infringement on some women's civil liberties (perhaps that's not the right phrase, Mark will have to help here)- it stops their freedom of expression, their religion? Some women may choose to wear it themselves- some may even feel it empowers them. Why should we have the right to dictate what people wear?

So, go on. What do you think?


I hate the idea of dictating to anyone what clothes they can wear, how they express themselves in their beliefs or marginalising an already misunderstood minority with prescriptive, dictatorial and unenforcable laws.

Maeby

| 22,311 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 9:59 pm

Maeby - Marry me?

Marry me?

 
Quote: James, Jul 2010
Quote: Resident Death, Jul 2010
Well, France seems to be going ahead with this. Britain isn't.

What are your opinions on it?

Is it a garment that is insulting and degrading to women, that restricts them and shoves their (perceived) inequality out there for everyone to see?

Or is this move an infringement on some women's civil liberties (perhaps that's not the right phrase, Mark will have to help here)- it stops their freedom of expression, their religion? Some women may choose to wear it themselves- some may even feel it empowers them. Why should we have the right to dictate what people wear?

So, go on. What do you think?


I hate the idea of dictating to anyone what clothes they can wear, how they express themselves in their beliefs or marginalising an already misunderstood minority with prescriptive, dictatorial and unenforcable laws.



This is my opinion too- Forcibly banning something is as bad as saying someone HAS to wear the damn thing. I don't like burkhas, and I know it's from an extremist interpretation of the Qu'ran, effectively saying that women must cover up to stop temptation to men, etc, etc. But some women *do* choose to wear them as they say they feel it empowers them (I suppose you have to be there) and to therefore ban it is to stop their choice to wear it or not.

I am aware that some women do not have a choice and are forced into it, by the way. And I do not agree with this, but there must be a better way of stopping this than banning an item of clothing.

Also, if it is banned, might not people go out and wear it to show solidarity? How exactly would this ban be enforced? (In France, I think, the woman wearing the burkha is fined and if a man is found to be forcing her to wear it then he is either fined more or sent to jail. Not entirely certain upon that.) And who would enforce it? Police? Employers?
Ping!

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Delirium Tremens

| 1,875 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:06 pm

Delirium Tremens -

 
Quote: Resident Death, Jul 2010

I am aware that some women do not have a choice and are forced into it, by the way. And I do not agree with this, but there must be a better way of stopping this than banning an item of clothing.


I'd suggest a push for a greater inclusion of muslim women into community action centers, or the introduction of somewhere that they can feel comfortable talking about their homelife - then something can be done about the abuse. Chances are, if a man is forcing them to wear a full body cover (the line about shouting through a letterbox that's the hallmark of all bad and lazy comedians has sprung to mind) then their homelife needs some more scrutiny, because that may be the least of their worries.

`

| 11,612 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:08 pm

` -

 
It's an extremely difficult issue. I don't think it should be banned as I feel that dictating what someone can and can't wear is wrong. If you're going to ban any item of clothing then ban those t-shirts and hoodies you can buy at festivals that have 'C*NT' written on them, it's not the use of the word that bothers me but the complete lack of, or even attempt at, any sort of wit. It's vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity and that is boring.

However, I also personally believe that it's incredibly sexist, degrading and insulting to women. At least, that is where its origins lie, even if some women do choose to wear it anyway. So I don't think it should be banned but in an ideal world I would rather people just realised that it's not really a very respectful item of clothing or at least that it doesn't come from a respectful point. Some people view it as a symbol of a culture that is institutionally misogynistic and sexist and use that to fuel their own small-minded and racist views, not because they care about the feelings of the women involved but just because they are unpleasant and want to hate.

People who say it should be banned because 'they might be hiding a bomb under it' should all be rounded up and blended with glue to form a sticky paste that BP can use to plug their (george) leak, solving everyone's problems.

The Underwhelmed One

| 7,098 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:08 pm

The Underwhelmed One -

 
Quote: James, Jul 2010

I hate the idea of dictating to anyone what clothes they can wear, how they express themselves in their beliefs or marginalising an already misunderstood minority with prescriptive, dictatorial and unenforcable laws.



Likewise.

I'm also fed up with people claiming that it'll stop women being 'forced to wear them'. More like it'll stop women who are forced to wear them even being allowed to leave the house! That's a different matter entirely.

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.

I know a lot of people disagree with me but I have more of an issue with the hijab/headscarf than I do with a burkha. The amount of women I see wearing a hijab but slathered in make up is ridiculous. Are you going for the modest look or not?! I used to go to uni with a girl who had on so much makeup she looked like a drag act but she still had a headscarf on. It was mind boggling.
I myself am made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.

John Cage Bubblegum

| 6,551 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:08 pm

John Cage Bubblegum -

 
Quote: James, Jul 2010
I hate the idea of dictating to anyone what clothes they can wear, how they express themselves in their beliefs or marginalising an already misunderstood minority with prescriptive, dictatorial and unenforcable laws.


This is pretty much what I came here to post. A ban would be totally illiberal and rather than liberate women, it would pretty much turn a lot of Muslims into complete shut-ins.
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Dr. Harold Shipman

| 10,547 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:12 pm

Dr. Harold Shipman - Old people CLEARLY need more painkillers.

Old people CLEARLY need more painkillers.

 
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.


Because covering your face means no-one can see who you are. Sorry, but if all you can see of someone is their eyes, they could be anyone, on the run murderers for instance.
http://endegrim.blogspot.com

Lady Stark

| 4,554 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:15 pm

Lady Stark - Winter Is Coming

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I've had a Muslim roommate in the past and she was proud to wear a Hijab. She told me once that it felt as normal to her as wearing any other item of clothing, that her whole family wore them and she'd laugh at me sometimes for spending ages doing my makeup (in a nice way, like when I'd overdo it and have to start over).

I know a Hijab and a Burkha aren't exactly the same thing but I don't see any reason why people shouldn't wear one if it's a part of who they are and what they believe in

The Underwhelmed One

| 7,098 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:15 pm

The Underwhelmed One -

 
Quote: Dr. Harold Shipman, Jul 2010
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.


Because covering your face means no-one can see who you are. Sorry, but if all you can see of someone is their eyes, they could be anyone, on the run murderers for instance.


But I could be anyone anyway. I fail to understand this!
I myself am made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.

Delirium Tremens

| 1,875 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:16 pm

Delirium Tremens -

 
Quote: Dr. Harold Shipman, Jul 2010
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.


Because covering your face means no-one can see who you are. Sorry, but if all you can see of someone is their eyes, they could be anyone, on the run murderers for instance.


Also, they might have bombs.

The Underwhelmed One

| 7,098 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:17 pm

The Underwhelmed One -

 
Quote: James, Jul 2010
Quote: Dr. Harold Shipman, Jul 2010
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.


Because covering your face means no-one can see who you are. Sorry, but if all you can see of someone is their eyes, they could be anyone, on the run murderers for instance.


Also, they might have bombs.


Ah yes, I forgot the bombs.
Because the only safe place to attach them is to your face.
I myself am made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.

Bob Flapper

| 4,996 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:17 pm

Bob Flapper - Me?!

Me?!

 

It's definitely multi faceted this 'un.

Can't really add to the above points because they practically sum up the argument.

My own personal view is that a lot of muslim women do wear the burkha out of duty, religious devotion, heritage etc. but to be honest i think it's an horribly outdated practice stemming from a tradition of oppression towards women which shouldn't happen in the 21st Century. Apart from whenever it comes to wages and top job oppurtunities, obviously. It may carry water in the islamic eastern countries I don't think it has a place in Western Europe.

I can obviously appreciate the very nature of Globalization means we're going to have many different cultures, ideas and ways of life but I think it'd be a wasted oppurtunity to rid people of certain ideas, the wearing of the burkha being one of them. On the otherhand the question of who decides what's a an oppresive quasi religious reginemntal behaviour and what's acceptable.

Overall I think it's a good thing to do away with it, but I'd rather the call for it came from the Muslim community as oppossed to a government.
http://thedirtybeggar.wordpress.com/

Maeby

| 22,311 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:17 pm

Maeby - Marry me?

Marry me?

 
Quote: James, Jul 2010
Quote: Dr. Harold Shipman, Jul 2010
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.


Because covering your face means no-one can see who you are. Sorry, but if all you can see of someone is their eyes, they could be anyone, on the run murderers for instance.


Also, they might have bombs.


I personally prefer to place bombs in my handbag and then toss them. Much more convenient than getting them from under a long skirt!
Ping!

Wife of Amy, Sex Goddess

Dr. Harold Shipman

| 10,547 posts


19th Jul 2010 at 10:18 pm

Dr. Harold Shipman - Old people CLEARLY need more painkillers.

Old people CLEARLY need more painkillers.

 
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010
Quote: Dr. Harold Shipman, Jul 2010
Quote: The Underwhelmed One, Jul 2010

But really, no one forces me to wear a mini skirt on the days I don't want to show my legs, I don't really see why a personal choice to cover my face should be any different.


Because covering your face means no-one can see who you are. Sorry, but if all you can see of someone is their eyes, they could be anyone, on the run murderers for instance.


But I could be anyone anyway. I fail to understand this!


How? If you've committed a major crime and are wanted, dress up like a Muslim woman. No-one will stop you, you can just go wherever you want because no-one can see who you are.
http://endegrim.blogspot.com


 
 
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